Ever been sitting in a Utah bar, watched someone win on a video poker machine, go to the bartender and get paid off in cash?
Looks a lot like gambling, doesn't it?It is, says Rep. Blake Chard, R-Layton. And he wants it stopped.
Toward that end, Chard is introducing a bill in next month's Legislature that will ban some video poker machines and other machines of chance from Utah businesses.
Video poker gambling is a $12 million a year operation in the state, says Lt. Mitch Ingersoll, head of the Department of Public Safety's liquor law enforcement section.
"There are at least 300 video poker machines across the state - that's a conservative number - machines whose only purpose is illegal gambling," Ingersoll said.
For 300 machines to take in $12 million annually, it would take about five $20 bets a day per machine, not an unrealistic estimate, state officials say.
Kent Knowley, owner of the private club Port `O Call and president of the Utah Hospitality Association, a trade group for private clubs and bars, says his group has no problem banning a very specific type of video poker machine - the ones that rack up a number of "new game" totals for winners.
"But we really worry if (lawmakers) try to ban all video games in bars, or even all machines that play video poker," Knowley said.
Ingersoll says the problem with video poker machine payoffs is growing and involves the knowing participation of dozens, if not hundreds, of owners of bars, private clubs, bowling alleys and other businesses where the machines are located, along with the dozen or so operators who supply the "gambling video" machines.
"There is a lot of money being made out there by the bar owners and (amusement device) operators, who of course get a cut off the machines' proceeds. I'm sure we're going to see people opposing this bill," said Ingersoll, who once worked undercover trying to catch video poker gamblers and accommodating bar owners.
Knowley says he knows of no specific instances of gambling payoffs in beer bars and private clubs. He knows state liquor agents and state investigators are frustrated by what's happening, however.
Chard, a former police officer, says it is tough to catch the perpetrators.
"They only pay off on some machines, in some bars. And they only pay off to regular patrons they know and trust," he said.
If a liquor agent goes in undercover, plays the video poker machine, wins some free games and then goes to the bartender and demands payment, if the bartender doesn't know the man, he refuses. "But if they know the (patron), they pay off," Chard said.
Ingersoll said several years ago he and his partner "spent three months working three Tooele bars to get a conviction." Ingersoll had to visit the bars three or four times a week. "And we had to win at the stupid video poker game, not an easy thing to do. We spent maybe $400 of state funds playing the machines until we finally got the confidence (of the bar owners), got payoffs and made arrests." All that for class B misdemeanor offenses.
"Three months (after the convictions), we went back. The video machines were back in the bars. The class B fines and other problems were just a cost of doing business," Ingersoll said.
Every kind of gambling is illegal in Utah; no exceptions. And banning video poker machines per se is the best way to solve the problem, he said.
Many bars and private clubs have video poker machines on their premises. The machines don't pay off in cash or gambling chips, as such machines would in Las Vegas casinos and bars.
"But except for the chip or coin trays under the machines, they are exactly like Las Vegas video poker machines," Ingersoll said. "They are multi-coin, double meter machines, just like Vegas."
Instead of chips or coins, if the Utah player wins, he wins new games. The cash payoff comes when the business owner pays the patron for the new games, Ingersoll said.
Knowley says he doesn't have the gambling type of machines in his club.
He says the video machines in his club - and in most clubs around Utah - only allow the player to win one free game - no matter how well the player does - or extended play time.
Ingersoll says video poker machines are not games of skill. No matter what cards you hold or what cards you discard, you win or lose against the dealer based on chance, just like slot machines.
Some of the so-called "dwarf video poker" machines take larger-denomination bills, some up to $20 bills.
"Who wants to spend $20 on a couple of hands of video poker? Only someone who is really placing a $20 bet on a hand of video poker, that's who," Ingersoll said.
"I know (state officials) want to crack down on gambling," Knowley said. "But we really worry about what they will define as an illegal video machine. How will local law enforcement (who may not be schooled in exact definitions) interpret what is an illegal machine?"
Knowley says many tavern and private club owners, and the amusement device owners who supply their machines, have considerable investments in their businesses. They can't afford to be busted without appropriate cause.
Ingersoll says many of the gambling machines are in rural Utah, where the difference in a business owner making a profit or going out of business may depend on his take on his gambling video poker machines.
"There was a woman in Carbon County who, over a number of years, lost $15,000 in a video poker machine in a bowling alley" placing $20 bets at a time, Ingersoll said. "In a bowling alley, for gripe's sake. This is a real problem, and it's growing."