Editor’s note: The following is a transcript of the episode. It's been edited for clarity.
Boyd Matheson: In a world of uncertainty, we often encounter unexpected questions and complexities that can challenge our faith. Faith in God, faith in ourselves and faith in the people around us can be undermined in the midst of such unexpected questions and complexities. Bruce and Marie Hafen join us to offer fresh concepts and timeless tools with their new book, "Faith is Not Blind," on this episode of "Therefore, What?"
"Therefore, What?" is a weekly podcast that breaks down the news while breaking down barriers, challenges you and the status quo, explores timely topics and timeless principles, and leaves you confident to face what's next. I'm Boyd Matheson, opinion editor for the Deseret News. And this is "Therefore, What?"
We are on location today to talk with Bruce and Marie Hafen. So grateful to have you with us today to talk about your new book, and in an age of uncertainty, this is really both a timely topic and a lot of timeless truths in there. How did this book all come about?
Marie Hafen: There are a couple of answers. Mine, to start with, is that we had a class together at BYU. In fact, that's where we met, called "Your Religious Problems." So to start with we kind of got rid of one of our religious problems by meeting each other. And it eventually became our marriage, blossomed into our romantic interest in each other and our marriage. But the class dealt with some faith issues, church history issues, some practical issues. And the format was that we presented, two people in each class, the reason for our questions, some studying about it, and then the class responded with a one-page response. That helped to give us a really good opportunity to talk with each other about the issues, to write about them, to think about them. And that conversation has just continued over the years. But that gave us a foundation for realizing that these questions are really a good opportunity for developing our testimonies, if you want to put it that way, but our relationship with God, our relationships with other people. That's one reason. That is not the only reason.
Bruce Hafen: I guess the second occasion that helped us develop these ideas was in the late '70s, early '80s. We were in Rexburg, Idaho. I was the president of Ricks College, now BYU-Idaho. And in a campus devotional, I decided to talk about, I think the title was "On Dealing With Uncertainty." This was in the pre-internet era, faith issues were not all the rage in the church. And I was talking in very general terms, because I had observed among our students that as part of their educational development, it might be helpful to them to think along these lines. And so maybe I can just illustrate the early part of that talk, because it's also a premise for what we're talking about in "Faith is Not Blind," and that is to say that there's a difference between the ideals of the gospel and the reality of how most of us are able to live. And that's normal. That's OK.
And beginning that talk, I just talked about the gap between the real and the ideal and gave illustrations. So you know, you go away to a church college and everything isn't perfect. And oh, what a shock that is. Then the same thing begins to occur as you go to the MTC and you learn about what missionaries are supposed to be like, what the mission field is like, then you actually get to the mission field and discover that all is not exactly what you had anticipated. And that's, again, it's normal. So in a variety of context, I guess the other one was, as we grow older, we get to know some of our heroes on an adult level, and we discover that our parents are people too, right? That they have had to work things through and maybe they don't have all the answers. And as you come to terms with this process, you realize this is kind of typical of all of life. And so then you try to apply that to educational experiences as we did there, to relationships with each other and social terms.
And that talk was printed in the Ensign, I guess. And so it was circulated back in that day, you know, talks that are that old, pretty well know where to go die and be buried. But since the advent of the internet, we've been surprised at the number of people who have said, "Oh, I ran onto this talk," or "My missionary companion told me about it." And they've told us that the concept was helpful to them in dealing with some of these issues about church history and church doctrine that are now so much in the air. And that's because the internet has made all of that so ubiquitous, it's everywhere. And so therefore, just speaking of "Therefore, What?," therefore it seemed to us maybe we should see if this concept is helpful. We tried it out in a few situations and found, yeah, it is helpful. People don't think in these terms. Typically people think it's either ideal or real. It's black or white. We need to see both at once and learn how to deal with the gap. And that gap keeps moving. And it's part of growth. It's normal and it's OK. So the choice is not just between faith and doubt, the question is larger than that? How do I manage the gap between what I would hope and what is?
BM: The gap is so interesting to me. And especially, I think, in an internet age, we often talk on this program about the problem of instant certainty, because of the internet where people are, you know, hearing something from one news source or another, and they're instantly certain what the interpretation is, who's right, who's wrong, who's to blame. And I think what we actually need more of in the world is instant uncertainty. And what you're talking about is getting comfortable with the uncertainty because that's ultimately where you're going to find your faith.
MH: Or at least being willing to take it on. Saying, I could see some positives in those uncertainties.
BH: I'm glad you mentioned that, Boyd. I hadn't actually heard the term instant certainty. But you're reminding me of something I ran across recently. A friend sent us a reference to an article in a publication called The Conversation. The subtitle for the article is "As work gets more ambiguous, younger generations are less equipped for it." And they share some research that was done on a fairly large scale with a lot of employees. And what they're finding is that in work situations, younger employees, the millennial generation and younger, have a very hard time coping with complex situations, with ambiguous situations. They don't like it, they don't know how to deal with it. And so it impairs their ability to function as employees and it creates anxiety and depression. The other buzzwords. So these guys in this piece go on to explore how could this be, and they are talking in their terms about what you're calling instant certainty. That is, because the internet conditions people to think that way, when there is uncertainty, they can't cope, and they've got a problem. So when you apply something that general to an issue as specific as religious faith questions, you can see this is not just all about the religion. This is about the cultural environment in which we live.
BM: In the book you point out one quote from Elder (Neal A.) Maxwell, who I know you have a unique relationship with as his biographer. But I always love that he had that term of meekness, because the strengthening of your faith or your discipleship comes in the uncertain moments. It's not in when you know exactly what you're doing, it's Nephi not knowing beforehand what he would do. But tell us how that ties into "Faith is Not Blind." What is the component of meekness in that whole equation?
BH: I'm glad you mentioned Elder Maxwell because you're reminding me of something he said once that, with so much of what he said, I remember it, I like it, it's true. I think his phrase was "doubt can either strengthen our faith or damage it." Something like that.
BM: Harden your heart or soften your heart.
BH: Depending upon your supply of meekness. In other words, the attitude of meekness allows us the soft heart. Plant the seed, as Alma says. When people harden their hearts because they believe certainty has to be instant, then they're not as open and they're just lacking meekness.
MH: They can't take it on. With no meekness there's no depth of heart. And they're already decided so they're not willing to think about something that may not fit in their paradigm. They'd rather be certain than right.
BM: You talk in the book about the simplicity beyond complexity. Describe that for our listeners a little bit.
BH: The phrase that we're talking about might be helpful to just capture. Let me give the phrase and state briefly what I think it means. Then maybe Marie can give us an example. The phrase comes from Oliver Wendell Holmes, the great American judge. He said, "I would not give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity. But I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity." Now, that sounds like a very complex statement, but actually we've got a reader review where she's saying, yea for the simplicity on the other side of complexity. She really got it. She begins her comments saying, "yep, yep, yep." So I guess that's her description of the simplicity.
What we're saying is that there's a stage in our personal development, not just with religious faith, but generally, where we're kind of innocent. Our ideas are untested, they're unchallenged, and as we grow, it's just a natural process of coming into our teenage years and early 20s. During that time typically people will run into new thoughts, new people, new experiences and that can be very challenging. There are all kinds of examples of it. And that is the complexity Holmes is talking about. A lot of people get stuck in that complexity. They never get out and their hearts are hardened and life is really difficult. But what we're suggesting by following his quote clear through to his final point, he's saying I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity. What that says to us is that maybe the complexity actually makes it possible for us to arrive at a place of informed faith.
I guess one example I'd offer before Marie offers one is Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were in the Garden. They were so innocent. It was the simplicity before complexity. When they tasted the fruit they were tasting complexity. As a result of that choice, they found themselves in the lone and dreary world. You talk about complexity. It was horrible. It was awful. We all understand that part of their story. But then the angel came to teach them, their experience went on. And because they persisted and were open, they were able to understand what the Atonement of Christ had to do with all of this. And when they got that message, then you've heard all these things. And because of our transgression, our eyes are open. Well, that's the doctrinal context in which this idea of Holmes fits. So I don't know how Holmes would feel to know that he fits right within the core doctrine that's in 2nd Nephi, but that's what it is.
BM: Well, and it's really Adam getting to the simplicity of I know not save the Lord. That faith.
MH: Well, I was just thinking too, in relationship to Adam and Eve and the temple, that someone came to Bruce once while we were in the St. George Temple and said to him, how come the story in the temple isn't about Christ? I mean, he's our central being, he's our central goal, most of the pictures in the temple are about him. How come the story is about Adam and Eve? And we thought about that, talked about it, and I think it was Bruce's insight when he said to this friend eventually, you know, I think that the story of Christ's life is the story of his giving the Atonement. But the story of Adam and Eve is the story about our receiving the Atonement. They're giving us the pattern for receiving the Atonement. And that's a little bit like the simplicity to complexity. And then the simplicity is not going back to Eden, right? It's going to somewhere else, it's going to somewhere better, it's going to someplace there may be more complexities for us to grow from. I think we can never get complacent or comfortable. We're not going to be there very long if we think that. I think you're right when you say if you're in your comfort zone, then you're not learning. You're not growing there.
BM: So I know one of the other components that you talked about in the book is kind of the head to heart paradox. I can see the dots all being connected here. Tell us what is the essence of that? And what do we need to apply in terms of that head and heart?
BH: Well, actually, Boyd, that harkens back to my religious problem. In that class that Marie talked about, this is a long time ago, we were students at BYU. She's described the format of the class, her topic, her question was how can I have the spirit in my life? That was the first time I ever heard Marie Kartchner say anything to the class. And that's how we became such good friends. My question was, should I be a Mormon liberal or a Mormon conservative? And did I mean political or theological or social? And the answer is, yes, all of them. Because back in those days, I was beginning to discover that there were people who tended one way or the other. There was an article written by a BYU professor named Richard D. Poll. I think it was published in Dialogue or Sunstone or one of those places, where his title was "What the Church Means to People Like Me." And he used these very memorable metaphors. For some Latter-day Saints, the church is the iron rod, all I have to do is put my hand on the rod and the church will tell me what to do, God will tell me what to do, I just do what I'm told. Then there are the Liahona Latter-day Saints, for whom the church is simply a general direction. And you have to figure out how to get there, you're supposed to use much more ingenuity, your own imagination, and one of my friends, one of our friends in that class has since passed away, but a dear friend, as we'd saunter across the campus and talk about these issues we were talking about Richard Poll's article. What does the church mean to people like me? His question was, what does the church mean to people like God? Which we thought was a very appropriate way to give perspective. As I was finding my way through the liberal-conservative thing, what I came to in the class and then my life experience developed it further, was that there's a place for each one of those attitudes, you know, there's a place for our head, and there's a place for our heart. In fact, it was our teacher from that class, now that I remember it, who said to me once after I had given that paper, I guess, he said, I find that some of our people in the church have it here in their head, others have it in their heart. I think it's better if they have it in both places.
And so it's reason and faith, how they work together. And so the chapter you're referring to is a description of personal experience. I've seen people who have left the church. I've seen some leave it on the right and some on the left, to use political terms. On the left are those sort of intellectual issues and those on the right end up leaving it because of spiritual overzealousness. And in many ways, they're more of a danger because they're drawing on doctrine and it's very religious. It's almost too religious because it's unrestrained. And so I'm talking about how faith and reason are kind of a check on each other. That's the way I saw it. But then the longer I lived, you mentioned Elder Maxwell earlier, I think he turned out to be a very important force for me. I saw in his own life that there's more. And that's the next chapter in the book. It's called "Beyond Balance." Because just being balanced between faith and reason isn't really enough. And to use Elder Maxwell's terms, he said this once to the BYU faculty in terms I've always remembered, we need to have our citizenship in Jerusalem and get a passport to Athens. It isn't the other way around, as a lot of university people think of it. And you don't really balance it. I mean, your citizenship needs to be firmly established in one place or the other, even though you fully partake of the culture of the world, of Athens. In the long run, Jerusalem has more to say.
MH: Can I give a quick example, just head and heart? One of the chapters, at least part of one, called "Climbing to Know God," which I think is part of this, you can't really know God until you're in your extremities, until things are hard, that is where you have the biggest opportunities. Because you can be the highest, but you can't know the highest until you have experienced some of the lowest. It's one of those paradoxes. And anyway, this is a story of a young missionary, part of that chapter, who went to the Far East from Idaho. And so he was going to people that had no idea about even who is God. And he had made a lot of assumptions about that. He thought he understood it. And then he got there, trying to teach these people about someone that he realized he really didn't know that well. So he knew it in his head, but not in his heart. But he wanted to. He wanted to know who is this God and who is he to me? And so he thought through and thought, How can I do this? And so he thought, well, let's get an anti-Christ from the Book of Mormon and someone who really believed in God, knew him, so he pitted Korihor against Alma and kind of set up an imaginary debate between the two. And as result of that and kind of asking Korihor where is the fruit of what you believe? Where is the heart of what you believe? He said then was when it came to me. And I began to know in my heart as well as my head, that what I was teaching these people who didn't know about God, I was teaching them a relationship that had become much stronger for me. So that's just one example of someone younger who's come to that.
BM: I want to jump quickly to another chapter because I think it's one that we can skip through pretty fast and say, Oh, yeah, that's a good thing. But it's the chapter on when do angels come? Because I think they're far more involved in our lives than we often think about. And I think it's part of that faith not being blind that actually gives us eyes to see that. Tell me about this chapter, where did this come from?
BH: That chapter tries to draw from church history to talk about what it's like to have questions you can't answer and where do you go from there? So it's kind of a metaphor. But what that chapter does is reflecting our feelings and experience. We love the Kirtland Temple. We love the Nauvoo Temple. And what this does is just review the history, which has been really interesting and kind of moving to us for years. The Kirtland Temple dedication represented the greatest spiritual outpouring in the history of the church, maybe ever, that's documented. And when you're in the Kirtland Temple, we were there not long ago and had our whole family on the ultimate church history trip and were able to be in the Kirtland Temple and sing "The Spirit of God Like a Fire is Burning." And we told our kids the stories, that there were angels. It was a Pentecost, Joseph Smith said. And the Savior came and manifested Himself to people and it was such a glorious time. It was sort of in the infancy of the church. Despite all the problems at that time, this was the kind of the ideal, spiritually. This was the fulfillment of the ideal. It was as if there was no veil. Then they left Kirtland. They experienced Missouri. Then they experienced Nauvoo. When the Nauvoo Temple was dedicated just shortly after the death of Joseph Smith, there were no angels. There's a story told of a blind convert who'd heard the stories of Kirtland and he came to Nauvoo. He hadn't been in Kirtland, had never been there. But he joined the church after that. He came to Nauvoo and wanted to work to help build the Nauvoo Temple because he believed that when that temple was dedicated, the angels would come again. And Joseph would come, the Savior, he would come, they would touch his eyes and heal them. So he helped, they dedicated the temple, as far as we know there were no angels. I believe there were angels but they were not to be seen. And that was on purpose. That's kind of the point. So life is like that. There's an early formative stage. It's sort of the simplicity before complexity, when we receive all kinds of spiritual understanding and impressions, we gain our first testimony, so to speak. And then we face the complexity that the church faced, having to leave Kirtland, going through the horrible persecutions in Missouri, going to Nauvoo, we lose Joseph. Now it's really complex. And what happens next, they're cast out and they have to wander across the plains and come to Zion. Zion? Is this Zion? Where the angels when we need them?
And I think with the chapter's trying to say is our lives are like that. And so when we encounter our Nauvoos. Kirtland was a first witness. It gives us confidence, it gives us hope. So we press on. But then we're like the people in the Martin and Willie handcart company who, speaking of angels, one of those survivors of that experience said, I pulled my handcart when I couldn't put one foot ahead of the other and I felt the handcart pulling me and I wondered what was happening. I turned around and sensed the angels of God were there. They weren't visible, but they were there. For us, it's when the angels are not visible that they're really more influential because of the circumstances of our lives. As that man said, we came to know God in our extremities. And so the complexity, our extremities, we can actually find God there instead of getting lost in that complexity. That's where we have to make our choice about where do we place the benefit of the doubt when those hard times come?
BM: Yeah, being able to experience and feel those when you can't see them. As you say, that's a really important principle.
MH: I was just set thinking about the choice people have to make at that point. Are the angels there, are they not? We were just in our sacrament meeting last Sunday. And there were two young girls who were young women who were going on a mission. And they were so excited. And so bubbly. Everything was super awesome or super, super cool. They were going into the MTC next week, but you know that when they get into the mission field, they're going to hit the complexities. Whether it's the challenges that they'll get from investigators or their companions, or maybe they have a mission president who speaks another language and it's difficult. They'll have to make a choice. Are we going to move ahead and realize that these complexities give us opportunities? Or are we just going to say, I can't handle that. I can't stay here. I'm going to go home. So it's in process for everyone. We're trying to get to that simplicity beyond complexity. And if we feel like we're there and we're comfortable, don't count on it. Because he'll want us to keep growing. So there'll be another complexity. And another peaceful simplicity, even in the midst of the complexity.
BM: Yeah, we may turn this into a four-hour podcast. I would stay here all afternoon. But I want to hit two things as we kind of come down the homestretch. And one is this idea of climbing to know God. And as we've had a few Elder Maxwell references, one of my favorite is when he talks about that while we see this quality in the lives of the genuine heroes and heroines about about us, the lack of it keeps so many of us struggling in the foothills and off the peaks of mountain tops and the adventure of full discipleship. And so it, again, back to that meekness and getting past the complexities in that climb to discipleship.
MH: Being meek enough to say I don't know everything, and this may be hitting me in a blind spot. Speaking of "Faith is Not Blind." If it's hitting me in a blind spot, I need to work on that so my faith is not blind. And that's not easy because we protect our weak spots.
BM: I used to always do a thing when I was doing business consulting and would ask people if they knew what their blind spots were. And everyone in the room would raise their hand. And I'd say well if you know it then it's not a blind spot. But there are real blind spots that you ought to pray about, you ought to think about, you ought to ask other people.
MH: Yes, yes. And how do you know if you're meek? Are you meek enough to say thy will be done and what do you have for me next? I'm working on that.
BH: Elder Maxwell was really helpful to me on this issue, back to the real and the ideal. When he asked me to write his biography I was overwhelmed. It did not work on paper. It just seemed absurd, and I couldn't tell him that. But anyway, once we got into it, you know, with my religious question about should I be a liberal or conservative — and he knew me, he knew what I was like and so I could ask him anything and I did. How do you want me to tell the story, Neal? You know how much I love you. And his answer was, please no hagiography, no idealized story. When we tell pioneer stories without the sweat, when we idealize the church, idealize all these stories, in the long run that isn't really very helpful. In fact, it creates a dissonance and it's part of why some people have religious issues, is because they see that ideal picture and they come to learn that in reality, people were struggling all the time with whatever they were doing. And so his comment was if all we do is this idyllic portrait, we paint a portrait of saccharin saints with tinsel traits. And in the long run that is far less faith-promoting than talking about people's limitations. It's not a story about weakness. It's a story about growth, overcoming and so that's what the book is trying to talk about is growth, not weakness. And if people can see our own history, our own experience.
BM: And don't you think it's true that, I believe we need a lot more of this courageous vulnerability, this willingness to say I don't know, I'm uncertain about this, or I struggle with this. We see this with a lot of the issues with teenagers and anxiety and stress today. They come home and their parents say, you know, just buck up, you'll be fine. Rather than having some of that authenticity to say, wow, when I dealt with my boss today I wanted to go crawl under my desk. I can see why you'd be upset about that. I think, as you were saying Elder Hafen, in terms of the history, if we just have this idyllic without the authenticity of the overcoming, we've really missed it, right?
BH: Because when we're kind of bluntly realistic about ourselves, about personal issues, about all of these kinds of things. Then when the growth occurs, we appreciate it far more. Instead of thinking it's automatic, it's not automatic, but it's real. And when it happens, that's what testimony is made of is real experience. Not just nice talks in church. And so Elder Maxwell is such a good example for teaching us that.
MH: The ideal is very real, it's probably more real than the reality, at least that's what we're hoping. That's what we're planning on.
BH: "Therefore, What?" So people have been listening to us for a half-hour. As they get into your book, what's the "Therefore, What?" Maybe we'll start with you, Marie, what do you hope people come away with? How do you hope they think different, what do you hope they do different as a result?
MH: I would hope that they would see that their hard experiences, the challenges, the complexities are opportunities, rather than being disillusioned by them with the kind of attitude that they have toward them. Saying, Come on, we can do this. That there's opportunities for them to make a choice at that point. Choose to back off, or choose to move forward and to give God a chance. Develop a real depth of relationship with him. The joy and the deep — they come together, the joy and the sorrow in your relationship with God. Because if you have that true deep relationship with him, this is the therefore for me, then these other issues are not the kind of problems that will knock you out of the game.
BH: "Therefore, What?" The first person I ever heard asked that question was President Dallin Oaks. He loved the question. He was a law professor, therefore, what. I guess I would say — we're talking about these issues with one of our kids who had gone through his own complexities and had come out of them stronger and better. And he made this comment as we talked about these issues. And is this worth doing and why should we do it? And he said, having observed that there are people who kind of get stuck in complexity, they're in the sultry Glebe, as our song says, his comment was, if we can't learn to give the Lord and the church the benefit of the doubt in these close cases, if we can't learn how to do that, pretty soon we won't go down the road of faith and sacrifice at all. That's what we're talking about. And if we don't go down that road, we will never find the happiness which is prepared for the saints. Because it comes with a price, and not just because it's expensive, but because we won't understand it if we haven't paid the price. That's why the Lord doesn't make it any easier. So there's a lot at stake in how we respond to these questions and so I just hope that people can be patient and open and meek and know what road we're talking about. These are not just sort of theoretical history questions. It's the kind of core of the gospel is at stake here.
BM: Thanks so much for joining us today on "Therefore, What?" The book is "Faith is Not Blind," a great read and wonderful insight from a lifetime of discipleship. And we appreciate that very much. Remember, after the story is told, after the principle is presented, after the discussion and debate have been had, the question for all of us is "Therefore, What?" Don't miss an episode, subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening today. And be sure to rate this episode and leave us a review. Follow us on Deseretnews.com/Tw and subscribe to our newsletter. This is Boyd Matheson, opinion editor at the Deseret News, thanks for engaging with us on "Therefore, What?"
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