Late Tuesday, the news broke that the University of Pennsylvania will invalidate the records set by transgender swimmer Lia Thomas and apologize to female athletes who were affected. In return, the Trump administration said it would release $175 million in funding that had been withheld during a Department of Education investigation.
Riley Gaines already knew.
The former University of Kentucky swimmer, who famously tied for fifth place with UPenn’s Lia Thomas in an NCAA championship event in 2022, was quoted in the news release that the Department of Education issued July 1.
“From day one, President Trump and Secretary (Linda) McMahon vowed to protect women and girls, and today’s agreement with UPenn is a historic display of that promise being fulfilled. This administration does not just pay lip service to women’s equality: it vigorously insists on that equality being upheld,” Gaines said in the release.
In a statement addressed to the “Penn community,” the university president, Dr. J. Larry Jameson, said the investigation had been about one athlete who was on the women’s swim team from 2021-2022. He said the University of Pennsylvania did not have its own policy regarding transgender athletes, but followed NCAA eligibility rules at the time.
“NCAA eligibility rules changed in February 2025 with Executive Orders 14168 and 14201 and Penn will continue to adhere to these new rules,” the statement said.
It went on to say, “While Penn’s policies during the 2021-2022 swim season were in accordance with NCAA eligibility rules at the time, we acknowledge that some student-athletes were disadvantaged by these rules. We recognize this and will apologize to those who experienced a competitive disadvantage or experienced anxiety because of the policies in effect at the time.”
In its statement, the Department of Education was more specific about the resolution agreement the university signed, saying that Penn also agreed to: adopt “biology-based definitions for the words ‘male’ and ‘female’”, revise competition records and “send a personal letter of apology to each affected female swimmer.
While some saw the agreement as “punishment” for transgender athletes and misuse of Title IX, for Gaines, the day was cathartic and represents a remarkable turnaround from where the nation was just a year ago on the subject of transgender athletes.
Gaines, 25, largely credits Donald Trump for what she sees as an “inflection point” in the culture, but she has also been part of the change with her advocacy on podcasts and TV, and on her own show, “Gaines for Girls” on OutKick, the Fox-owned media platform founded by Clay Travis.
Gaines, who lives in Nashville and is expecting her first child in September, spoke with the Deseret News Wednesday about the UPenn announcement, the effect it could have on the lawsuit she and other athletes have filed against the NCAA, and why she has sympathy for Lia Thomas, her former competitor.
The interview has been lightly edited for clarity and length.
Deseret News: What was your reaction to yesterday’s news?
Riley Gaines: I really made this my mission over the past three years at this point, being directly and personally affected by these regressive policies. Understanding the harm that had been done, nothing would satisfy me until there was of course some accountability, and responsibility and a public apology ... So that is something I made sure to mention to people like Secretary McMahon is that a crucial part of justice is issuing an apology, basically admitting from its inception, this whole movement was a farce. So that’s something that I’m suing over, with the NCAA lawsuit.
The apology piece, as well as the records that are being restored, is huge part in this. This is historic ... a private institution, an Ivy League institution, being the one to do this, this sends a message to every institution, and every single public official, that if they continue to enforce these policies that are ultimately harmful to women, they cannot do it without fear of public backlash, without fear of legal scrutiny or scrutiny of course from the Trump administration.
DN: How does this news affect the lawsuit that you filed against the NCAA with other athletes?
RG: That’s kind of the question. It’s been a long, drawn-out process, as the lawsuit has gone on for over a year. U-Penn is not explicitly mentioned in that lawsuit; it’s only the NCAA. There’s another lawsuit that is still ongoing; University of Pennsylvania women are suing the NCAA and the Ivy League. It will be interesting to see how a judge treats this now that they have issued, or we expect them to issue, an apology to those athletes that are part of the lawsuit. So we will see. That will hopefully be determined in the coming weeks or months.
DN: Under the resolution, Pennsylvania has to issue letters of apology to the athletes that were affected. Does that include you, or just athletes at U-Penn?
RG: I believe, based on what the Department of Education put forward, it should be every woman who was affected by Thomas’s participation on the U-Penn women’s team. It says “to each impacted female swimmer.” So I believe it extends beyond U-Penn, which is a pretty extensive list, and I wonder how they are going to do that. Think of every single girl who was displaced, not just first to second, but someone was left off the podium of being eighth, which is All-American, or 17th, which is secondary All-American. I’ll be interested to see how U-Penn handles the apology portion of the agreement.
DN: Since we’re talking about placement, can you address the argument that some have made, most recently Keith Olbermann, who tried to denigrate you by saying that you had now tied for fourth place and not fifth. Why does all this matter, whether an athlete comes in fourth, fifth or 20th place?
RG: My response to someone like Keith Olbermann is, OK, do you think only the best of the best women deserve protection? I think every woman is entitled to a fair shot to compete and succeed. First, being in the top eight in the country is a huge achievement. Being in the top 16 in the country is a huge achievement. It doesn’t matter if you’re first, if you’re the rightful national champion, or if you’re the slowest swimmer in the country. It sends a terrible, terrible message, to young girls especially, when we tell them you’re only worthy of protection if you reach a certain speed, or a certain level of eliteness. I believe every single girl at every level, elementary school on, shouldn’t have to worry about this issue. And I’m so happy to congratulate people like Emma Weyant, who is now getting her rightful recognition.
DN: Have you communicated with Lia Thomas in any way since your competition in 2022?
RG: No, I haven’t. Initially, following that national championship, I reached out on social media — honestly, I’m ashamed to say, pretty apologetically. I felt like I needed to explain why I felt the way I did, the way I still do. I would welcome a conversation there. But I wouldn’t now do it in a manner that was apologetic, or having to say sorry for feeling this way, because I’m not sorry at all for believing that women are entitled to equal opportunities, to privacy and to safety. But I’d still love to explain, but not in a manner that would backpedal from the positions I’ve taken at all.
DN: So you didn’t get any response?
RG: No, ma’am.
DN: Do you have any sympathy for Thomas?
RG: Absolutely, I believe that he’s a victim too. That’s the problem with this movement, it’s created so many victims, even with what they call gender-affirming care. I feel so, so bad, especially for those minors who have been in situations where they have taken hormones or horrifically have gone through surgeries or procedures, removing healthy body parts. I feel so much sympathy and love, truthfully, in my heart, for those individuals.
DN: Before all of this happened, what had you been planning to do for a living?
RG: Dentistry. I was in dental school following undergrad, hopefully set to specialize in endodontics. That’s what I planned to do, that’s why I got my degree in human health sciences and health law. I had been awarded tens of thousands of dollars of scholarship funds to continue this education and career path. But a feeling of total conviction and passion is what ultimately led me to putting that on hold, while pursuing this advocacy.
DN: You may have seen that the Olympic gymnast MyKayla Skinner came out in support of you recently, and said that you’d inspired her and helped her find her voice after she was cyberbullied. You’ve been subjected to a lot of vitriol in the media and on social media. So how do you deal with this?
RG: I’ve ignored it, to be totally transparent. I know everyone is different, but speaking for myself, I feel this level of serenity, if you will, just totally at peace with how I conduct myself, how I approach the conversation, with my messaging, with what side of history that I’m going to be on. Because I know it’s the right thing. And I think when you know something is right, it makes it easy.
Of course, from an objective standpoint — understanding of course that women and men are biologically and anatomically different — but more so, for me, it’s my faith: understanding that we have a creator who made them male and female, and to deny that or to attempt to alter that is an attempt to deny God. ... I’m not fighting for anything of this world, I’m fighting for the hope and promise of eternal life. ... And I’m fighting for people like my younger sister, for my daughter, for the future of women. That to me, I can withstand any backlash if my daughter’s future is one where she can call herself a champion. It makes it easy to do. Again, I know not everyone is secure in that manner, but I think my faith is mostly to thank for that.
DN: Do you see this as a cultural reset for the country? By that I mean, has something permanently rolled back in the transgender moment, or is it just going underground until President Trump leaves office?
RG: In terms of this being an inflection point, I do really think that. What we’re seeing is, in some small way, it doesn’t necessarily undo the harm that the University of Pennsylvania has allowed for, but it is the first step in justice and taking accountability. So hopefully it will set the precedent for every institution to follow at every level. The Trump administration, the Department of Education, the Department of Justice ... they’re not here to play games. They’re here to enforce the law. This is what the American people voted for.
We would not have seen something like this even just a year ago. So it shows you how much things can change, even in terms of the general public, in just the matter of a year. And when you compare 2020 to 2025? That’s like we’re living on two different planets.
DN: What’s next for you, besides having a baby?
RG: There are certainly still things that need to be done. Myself and 19 other plaintiffs are suing the NCAA ... the Supreme Court still hasn’t heard a Title IX case. We should hear something this week, hopefully, if they will hear a case coming from West Virginia or Idaho surrounding Title IX, and that would be fantastic if the Supreme Court could rule on something like this. There’s still a lot to be done, in both the public and the legal system. We’ll just continue to push forward. But 28 states have passed some sort of fairness in women’s sports law, and 17 states have defined the word “woman” in law, in state statute, which is crazy that has to be done. So we’ll keep going full steam ahead and keep pressure on people who oppose this.