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For as long as I have been cognizant of politics, immigration and border security have been at the center of the conversation.
It was a core focus of President Donald Trump’s first and second presidential campaigns, and it’s one of the main criticisms of former President Joe Biden’s time in office. The disagreements seem to stem from a belief that you can have one or the other: compassion or the rule of law.
Sen. John Curtis, R-Utah, believes you can have both. And not only that you can, but that you must in order for immigration enforcement to be successful.
This isn’t a new concept for Utah’s junior senator. He’s repeatedly called for more compassionate decisions when it comes to immigration enforcement, often calling it “a false narrative” that the country can’t simultaneously practice empathy and the rule of law.
He most recently alluded to this belief in an interview with CNBC’s “Squawk Box” on what this would look like, drawing a comparison between Trump’s and Biden’s approach to immigration policy.
I sat down with Curtis to discuss his views further — especially in the context of ongoing negotiations to fund the Department of Homeland Security.
“I think when people hear me say ‘rule of law and compassion,’ they all go to compassion, and they skip right over rule of law, “ Curtis said. “And you can’t have compassion if you’re ignoring the rule of law.”
Curtis told me that recent concessions and policy changes from the Trump administration are a good example of what compassionate immigration policy is like.
For example, he pointed to border czar Tom Homan’s operational shifts in Minneapolis after the death of two U.S. citizens in January. He also pointed to White House concessions to allocate money for body cameras and visible identification for officers.
That comes in contrast, he says, to the “open-border policies” under the Biden administration — which Curtis argued were not compassionate.
“One of the examples that came to mind to me as I was thinking about this interview is, look, I’ve raised six children. And there are times your own children would tell you it’s not compassionate to make me clean my room, give me a curfew,” Curtis said. “Parents who want to show compassion to their kids enforce the rules of the home. Compassion includes rule of law, and where there’s a lack of rule of law, it’s never compassionate.”
Here’s more from my sit-down with Curtis and how it ties into current negotiations. The answers have been edited for length and clarity.
Q: We can start off with this very broad question of how you would define compassion in regards to immigration policy, in regards to having the rule of law enforced.
Curtis: I’ll even use the White House as an example. It’s been in roughly two weeks that the president changed the secretary of the (Department of Homeland Security), and he sent Tom Homan immediately up to the area. He agreed to body cameras. He agreed to change the policy about the way people are trained and the way that they approach people, and I think those are all examples of the president trying to put a little bit more compassion into rule of law enforcement.
I’ve used the Utah Compact as my handbook back here, and if we’re not careful, we’ll set up this false narrative that these two are mutually exclusive, that if you’re going to insist on rule of law, you can’t have compassion.
Q: Do you think people think that they can’t go together because it hasn’t really been done on a large scale, and so they think you have to have one or the other?
Curtis: I would say, for most of our country’s history, we have got it right. Not always, but we have.
I mean, we’ve treated our immigrants with great respect and compassion. And when they come legally, the compassion is amazing. In Utah, you would see examples of that all over the place.
That’s been one of the successes of our country, as we have been able to do both. And I think it’s a strong core Utah value. I’ll just always push back that it’s that they’re mutually exclusive and that you can’t have both of them.
Q: In the context of what’s happening right now and all the current negotiations of trying to fund DHS, do you view the current talks of pairing ICE reforms with the adequate funding that it needs — do you think that’s an example of where compassion and rule of law come together?
Curtis: I think we’re seeing compassion and rule of law totally separated. I have never seen a situation where the Democrats have been given everything they wanted over and over the last few weeks, and then have them say no and keep changing.
None of us know quite what to do. The number of things that the president has given them that they were asking for is remarkable. I’m surprised the White House has moved as much as they have, and yet the Democrats keep saying no. It’s as if they were predetermined to say no before they got the answer.
(More from Curtis on this question later.)
Q: What would you say is missing from the conversations right now that would meld these two sides together, and have these two objectives complete?
Curtis: We’re there. The Democrats just need to say yes. They’re the dog that chased the car that caught it and don’t know what to do with it. Like we are really there.
I think the number of wins that they have had from the president — and by the way, it’s not the Senate, all these, all these negotiations are going on directly with the president — and they don’t know how to say yes. It’s just super frustrating, because we think we’ve reached a deal, and they changed their minds.
Stories driving the week
- Redistricting repeal: The Republican-led effort to put Utah’s redistricting law back on the ballot fell below the required threshold in one state Senate district on Wednesday after a signature removal campaign by supporters of Proposition 4.
- Trump’s ‘favorite Mormon’: Chris Klomp, the newly named chief counselor of the Department of Health and Human Services, was picking apples with his wife and children on a Sunday afternoon in September when he first heard from Trump’s transition team. Now he’s responsible for administering $2.6 trillion in taxpayer funds.
- Bet on it: Utah Sen. John Curtis is spearheading a bipartisan effort to crack down on loopholes used by prediction markets to circumvent state laws that ban sports betting. The proposal comes after lawmakers have raised concerns that the CFTC has opened a back door for prediction markets to solicit gambling by disguising themselves as investments.
Frustration boiled over in DHS talks
For those of you watching the shutdown drama from afar, I wanted to touch on just how tense talks have been here on Capitol Hill. Senators have been working between parties and with the White House for nearly six weeks straight.
This has included late nights, weekend work, and lots (and lots) of potential deals that later fell apart.
As you can imagine, people are on edge.
I think this was best on display with House Speaker Mike Johnson, R-La., huddled with a few of us reporters on Thursday afternoon as talks continued to drag on in the Senate and most Democrats just again voted against a spending deal in the House.
Johnson typically has a very calm demeanor. He’s soft spoken, thinks carefully before he speaks, and is very polished. On Thursday afternoon, he was visibly frustrated and angry — talking in a loud volume while looking defeated.
“We are quite frustrated right now,” Johnson said. “The question for the Democrats right now is — it’s a serious question — how long is this going to go on? Are we going to wait until somebody brings a firearm on a passenger airplane? Are we going to wait till we have a natural disaster that we cannot take care of?”
He went on: “This is not a game, but these are not serious people. And they have demonstrated once again that they are putting the welfare of criminal illegal aliens above American citizens.”
Following up from Sen. John Curtis’ interview above, the Utah senator also expressed frustration among Republican lawmakers — especially as they argue that Democrats keep moving the goalposts on their demands.
Curtis told me: It’s very, very frustrating here. And it’s embarrassing for me to walk through the airport and see these agents who, just a few months ago went weeks without a paycheck, and now we’re asking for more weeks without a paycheck.”
“And they have nothing to do with this,” he added. “That’s a really good example of lack of compassion — taking this out on somebody who had nothing to do with it, and we’ve got to change that paradigm. It’s members of Congress that should be going without paychecks, and it’s members of Congress that should be glued to their desk right until we solve this, and not these TSA agents.”
Quick hits
From the Hill: Republicans push Democrats in corner with proposal for photo ID in federal elections. … Republicans move forward on second megabill. … Life lessons from the GOP’s favorite Democrat.
From the White House: Trump’s vision for housing hits roadblocks in Arizona. … Tech leaders including Zuckerberg to advise Trump in global tech arms race. … Here’s what Trump said as Mullin was sworn in to replace Noem at DHS.
From the courts: Settlement reached over Biden-era pressure on social media companies to restrict speech. … Supreme Court issues decision on police officer in Vermont protest case.
As always, feel free to reach out to me by email with story ideas or questions you have for lawmakers. And follow me on X for breaking news and timely developments from the Hill.