The implementation of the NCAA’s “Name, Image and Likeness” rule in 2020 rocked the world of college athletics.
On this episode of Deseret Voices, BYU President Shane Reese and Advancement Vice President Keith Vorkink join journalist Jane Clayson Johnson to talk about their experiences with this new frontier.
The Cougars, who now enjoy Power Four membership in the Big 12 after toiling for years as an independent in football, have their own challenges with the honor code and the school’s unique mission beyond sports.
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Voiced intro:
The landscape of college athletics has changed forever. What began with the NCAA’s “Name, Image, and Likeness” rule — giving student-athletes the chance to earn millions from their personal brands — has now evolved even further.
For the first time, schools themselves can share millions in revenue directly with their players. It’s a seismic shift — one that raises a lot of new questions.
This week on Deseret Voices, I talk with BYU President Shane Reese and Vice President Keith Vorkink about how a faith-based university navigates this new era — competing at the highest levels of college athletics while staying true to its mission… and chasing Big 12 dreams.
Note: Transcript edited by Steven Watkins
Transcript:
Jane Clayson Johnson: Well, President Reese and Vice President Vorkink, it’s so nice to see you. Thank you for joining us today.
Shane Reese: Oh, thanks for having us. We’re excited to be here.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So we’ve got a lot to get to. I want to start with you, President Reese, you have a Ph.D. in statistics. You’re an expert in sports analytics. You’ve worked with professional sports teams. You’ve even turned down a job at the front office at the Philadelphia Eagles to stay at BYU. So how have these worlds — statistics, analytics and sports — converged in your life?
Shane Reese: Yeah. Well, I, am a passionate — but the other part that you didn’t mention — I’m a passionate sports fan. It’s not just that I have professional training. I am a sports nut.
Jane Clayson Johnson: You’re a sports guy.
Shane Reese: Yes. Always have been. My mom used to say that she would get me to calm down when I was fussing and, and kind of uncontrollable, by putting me in front of a football game on television. That was the way she soothed me. So. So apparently it goes way back for me. I have always loved sports. And I think the thing that really got me into statistics in the first place was sports.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Oh, wow.
Shane Reese: Yeah. Reading box scores. I found it fascinating. I like to see how my favorite player did. I mean, I just, it has always been about sports for me. So, that’s part of what drove my passion for statistics.
Jane Clayson Johnson: And now, as president of BYU, I’ve read that you’ve spent a good chunk of your time, up to 15% of your schedule on athletics, on BYU athletics. So this new NCAA settlement has completely shifted the landscape. Redefined the playing field. This is not your grandpa’s sports game anymore. Describe this monumental shift that happened this year in college sports. Lay the table for this conversation.
Shane Reese: It began, several years ago, four or five years ago, when student-athletes were given the ability to get small payments to meet their basic cost of living needs. And then as time progressed, people started paying more and more attention to the revenues that were generated. The feeling just persisted that the people who were providing the entertainment value, the student-athletes themselves, weren’t receiving fair compensation for their contributions to the product that was put on television and in other places, so there was this lawsuit that came out by a swimmer from Arizona, who said, and his name was Grant House. So we often hear this House settlement and people think we’re talking about Congress, the U.S. House. But it was actually a swimmer named Grant House who said, I don’t think I was fairly compensated for my name, image and likeness or NIL. And he brought this settlement and it really did turn college athletics on its head.
Jane Clayson Johnson: OK. So let’s start with revenue sharing. Because after this settlement, colleges, including BYU, are now allowed to distribute this pot of money, right, up to $20 million per year directly to student-athletes. Huge disruption, as you were saying. What does it mean for college athletics overall and specifically at BYU?
Shane Reese: One of the things that I think is important, and this was part of the conversation as we were going through the process of arriving at this settlement, is that university athletic departments aren’t usually sitting on large chunks of money. They really do operate, on very small margins by and large. And so what they bring in, they pay out, in terms of, improving facilities, in terms of paying coaches, in terms of I mean, you list the cost of doing business for a college athletic department, and it’s a fairly significant budget. And so, these universities, when this settlement came out, had to figure out how they were going to pay this piece of the revenue sharing, which, by the way, is a permissive benefit. You’re not required to pay $20.5 million. And by the way, that number will be revisited on regular increments going forward.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So the question is, will BYU participate in this, and if so, what will that look like?
Keith Vorkink: We’ve made the decision to participate in it. And we’ve been positioned well, I think, to participate in it. The moneys that flow into athletic departments at the large universities who participate aggressively in athletics is significant to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year. But that wasn’t always the case. Many athletic departments do not run a profit year over year.
Jane Clayson Johnson: But BYU does.
Keith Vorkink: But we have for years and years and years. Which positioned us so that when we came into this financially to not be in as difficult a spot as many, many athletic departments. So we made the decision we were going to participate under some really important conditions.
Jane Clayson Johnson: OK. Let’s talk about those conditions, because that’s really key here. There are a lot of people who say BYU is going to do that? Tell us how you’re going to do it. How is it going to work?
Shane Reese: Yeah. Well, first of all, you know, one of the things that I think is vital to, to reinforce because I think so many people don’t realize this, and in fact, you’ll read in popular press that BYU because they have the backing of a of a rich church, are going to be able to gain a competitive advantage. I will tell you, in no point during the history of Brigham Young University athletics have funds from the church, specifically tithing funds, been used to fund anything associated with our athletic department.
Jane Clayson Johnson: And will not be moving forward?
Shane Reese: And will not be moving forward. We are, we have always been committed to that principle, and it’s a principle that we continue to live by.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So the money comes from media rights. It comes from ticket sales. Where does it come from?
Shane Reese: Media rights, ticket sales, corporate sponsors are always and, candidly, donors. Donors are another source of funds for us. But those are the sources. Nothing coming from the church. So that’s the first principle. The second one that’s, I think, been a time-honored tradition for us as a university, which is not popular and even some would argue may not be the most financially productive way of conducting business is, we won’t assume debt. Period. We won’t spend beyond what we bring in and have been committed to that from the day we opened our athletic department. Now, that might mean that our facilities aren’t quite as shiny. And our resources available to the athletic department aren’t quite as abundant, but we do find a way to manage within the means that we collect.
Jane Clayson Johnson: But you have a lot of wealthy donors, and BYU is a worldwide brand. It has a lot of passionate fans. People with deep pockets. So, with these new rules and with the success of BYU recently in your athletic programs, I presume there’s a lot of excitement, from your donor base. So are you seeing donations? Do you foresee donations pouring in for this cause?
Keith Vorkink: You want me to take this one, President?
Jane Clayson Johnson: You’re going to give him the hard one?
Shane Reese: Hey, it’s a hard-hitting question. Keith?
Keith Vorkink: You’re exactly right. The energy around BYU athletics is maybe never been as intense and as strong as it is right now. And maybe there’s an important dynamic here to also think about is we went from a world where, external NIL was approved for student-athletes without university participating in it for a short period of time. And then, with this House settlement, that world is changed because external NIL is governed more, but there is permissive revenue sharing with student-athletes. I say that because in this interim time, many of our donor base got heavily involved in sponsoring NIL deals with student-athletes. Those can continue, but those get vetted in a way that they weren’t before.They have to go through a process that — this it’s a new entity called the College Sports Commission. And their charge is to ensure that all external NIL deals are at market. There was a period of time where many external NIL deals were essentially pay for play. We’re trying to attract a student-athlete to come participate at our university by giving them lots of money, without any real expectation of a deliverable.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Are there restrictions on donors under these new rules, President?
Shane Reese: Oh, absolutely. This College Sports Commission is separate from the NCAA. Part of the conditions of the settlement was that the power conferences pay into establishment of a college sports commission, and the College Sports Commission was tasked with evaluating the fair market value of these NIL deals. And there have been a fair number of those deals that have been flagged as problematic. And they had to go back and revisit the deal so that they were, fell under fair market.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So how do you view this working at BYU with these donors? I’m just going to drill down on this because it’s so important.
Keith Vorkink: We love the support of our donors. Their way to contribute now is to give money into the athletic department. And we’ve seen an increase in donations coming to the athletic department. Then the athletic department has this $20.5 million currently that they can use to revenue share with student-athletes. Now, one of the principles that we established early on is, our approach is to not be at the top, we participate aggressively, but we are not going to lead with money. Another associated principle is we don’t want to be the maximum bidder for any student-athlete to come play for us. We want to be in the game, but not at the top. And here’s a great example, Jane, a great example that just came out recently. We have the No. 1 recruit in the country, AJ Dybantsa.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Yes.
Keith Vorkink: Who could have played for any university.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Yes, yes.
Keith Vorkink: He just did an interview with SLAM magazine, and AJ said, I never had any discussions with BYU about money. I left all of that to my father, and my father never shared that with him. His father wanted him to make a decision about what school was going to be the best fit. It wasn’t going to be about money. We made a competitive revenue share offer with AJ. We weren’t going to be at the top of the market. And he decided to come because of all the other more strategic reasons for us.
Jane Clayson Johnson: I appreciate that. And then I will inject that I have been reading AJ will get $5 million, even $7 million in deals, presumably for one year of play at BYU. So, the dad knows about the money, but there’s money involved here, right? I mean, so will there be transparency in these numbers? I mean, how will this work at a place where BYU. You have a mission to fulfill here, right?
Shane Reese: We do. Absolutely. And we absolutely believe that we will be successful as an athletic department, not only as a university, but as an, as an athletic department. Because of our distinctiveness, because of our mission, it won’t be in spite of our mission. It will be because of our mission. Now, we will have students come and play for BYU for a whole variety of different reasons. Some of them will come purely because they think that this is the path that’s going to lead them to be a professional athlete. And we have the coaches who we think can help them along that path. We’ll have student-athletes who come because they think that this is a place that they can come and play without distraction, because we have an honor code, because we’re not so focused on, kind of the partying, partying atmosphere that happens at most college campuses, that it’s a distraction free environment. And we think that’s a wonderful reason. And then we have students who come because they resonate with our mission. All of those, in each of those cases, we think of those as distinctive reasons that they’ll come and they’ll come not for the money, that they’ll come for those other reasons. Now we have to be in the game. As you pointed out, there are people tracking what our offer is relative to other people’s offers. So we have to be in the game if we’re going to compete in big time college athletics. But we do think it is the distinctiveness of the institution and of the program that is going to be our secret to success.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So how do you balance recruiting top talent with holding on to the mission? Because you’ve said BYU’s board of trustees, led by the prophet and apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, expects the athletic department to reflect the school’s mission, right? Clark Gilbert, the commissioner of Church Education, said that BYU can never become a place where the culture is paid to play. We would undermine everything about BYU if that happens. So what kind of conversations are you having with the board at this very difficult time when the whole system is changing? Coaches, administrators, the board of trustees, what’s the balance here?
Shane Reese: Yeah, in so many ways, this does feel like, a moment where we have to demonstrate that we can be committed to our mission. We have to be committed to our distinctiveness. That includes all aspects of what it means to be distinctive and that includes, that we can’t be a pay for play culture. The reasons I talked about, whether it’s professional development or whether it’s distraction free, or whether it’s real resonance with the mission, each one of those are what I might call good, better, and best reasons for coming to play for BYU, that we have to have some of all of those in our student-athletes. And so it is going to be manifest in the student-athletes themselves and the reasons they come. But that really does show up in our coaches. You look at a Kalani Sitake and how he approaches all aspects of the development of his football players. And I will tell you, there may be no better human being that exemplifies the mission of Brigham Young University on the biggest of stages with the most eyes than our head football coach. That is an illustration of exactly what we’re talking about. So my point is that I go to our board of trustees and talk to them about how I believe our coaches are committed to this, to this aim.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Let me ask you about some of the byproducts of the NIL changes that we’re seeing. What does it do for the morale of a team when you’ve got one player making seven figures and all the other players or many of them are working just as hard, they’re just as committed, they’re making a slice of that, if anything at all. I mean, what does that do for a team that’s trying to come together and perform well? I mean, it has to make an impact.
Keith Vorkink: It certainly can. But what we’ve seen is, for example, our football team, which is the greatest participant in revenue sharing from the athletic department, has a great morale and not everyone is earning the same revenue share piece. There are some who make considerably more than others. And there was a model that was developed to do that. There was transparency with the student-athletes about it. They even reserved a little piece so that they could later on in the season, based on how additional performance played out, could receive additional compensation. It’s hard to know what the morale would have been without this, but there’s a very good morale.
Jane Clayson Johnson: When you’re making more than the coach …
Shane Reese: Yeah. No, you’re right and it’s a key point. But let me just say that some of the fundamental principles that we have tried to reinforce that I would say that we’ve had a tremendous buy-in from our athletic director. We’ve had tremendous buy-in from our coaches. And that leads to buy-in from our student-athletes, is that we are not a transactional culture in our athletic department. That changes the morale discussion. And it doesn’t mean we’re not going to still have some of those discussions. These student-athletes know that people on their team are making more than they do. I’m certain that there are morale hits, don’t get me wrong, but there is a relational aspect that does mitigate some of that morale kind of crushing differences in payments from revenue sharing.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Let me drill down on this just a little bit more, because we’ve seen NIL transform the BYU basketball team almost overnight. We talked about AJ. What about the other teams? When you think NIL, you think of men. To be honest, I do, with the exception maybe of that LSU gymnast Livvy Dunne. At other universities, Caitlin Clark, you know. But how do female deals at BYU compared to the men?
Shane Reese: Well, I’ll just share that. One of the great things that happened early on, is that one of our donors came forward and said, you know, I see exactly what you talked about, which is NIL having such great impact and benefit for our male athletes. We had one of our donors come forward and say, I want to have an NIL deal that applies to all female athletes. So he provided moneys so that could happen on a large scale for all of our female athletes.That’s a remarkable thing.
Jane Clayson Johnson: That’s huge.
Shane Reese: We were thrilled as an institution. And candidly, this has to be a follow on to the House settlement. The House settlement has a certain measure of durability to it. But in order to have that kind of full durability, we’re going to need some legislative support. The House settlement really only has a limited life span and durability. We’re going to need some legislative support for us to have that. And the legislative support is built on the very concept that you just talked about, which is how do we make sure that female athletes and by the way, it’s not just female athletes, it’s also Olympic sports. It’s the men’s volleyball team. It’s the men’s track teams. It’s the men’s baseball team. All of those teams are not revenue generating sports. And if you talk about distributing according to revenues, which is what most institutions have done, because it’s called revenue sharing, then you have to have something that will permit universities to have some support for those other athletes.
Jane Clayson Johnson: And that must help you recruit fantastic women who maybe want to share, now?
Keith Vorkink: For sure. No, we’ve had great, already, some spectacular outcomes. For example, we just recruited what we sometimes call the “Michael Jordan of long-distance running” to our women’s cross-country team: Jane Hedengren.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Oh, yes. Yes. Incredible.
Keith Vorkink: She is incredible. Could have gone anywhere. She could have picked the school and they would have taken her. And we can participate in revenue sharing with her in ways that most other universities would not because of the model we’ve chosen to follow, which allows some participation, some, what we would say is significant participation with our women’s and Olympic sports.
Shane Reese: Jane just broke the course record at an NCAA event in her first event that she’s ever run.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Wow.
Shane Reese: So, she is a very special athlete. We have amazing athletes in all of our programs, but Jane is a world-class runner. We’re excited about her.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So how are you regulating some of these, endorsement deals, the brand ambassadors, the influencers, they’re making a lot of money. So that’s outside revenue. Is it BYU’s job? Is it the university’s role to monitor these endorsement contracts and the influencer? What they’re doing out there?
Keith Vorkink: The House settlement actually deals with all the external NIL deals that are out there. So we’d, we would care about it and we would be managing them even if that didn’t exist. But the College Sports Commission, the CSC, requires every single NIL deal over $600 to be entered into a system where they’re evaluated. And so we see and they see every single one of those deals.
Jane Clayson Johnson: So the money’s one thing, but you’ve got an honor code, a standard of behavior that is quite different. That’s quite another matter. So how are you regulating that?
Keith Vorkink: That’s actually our internal NIL, our revenue share. We have a piece of it that is tied to mission aspects of the university. So students participate in revenue sharing by their ability to adhere to the honor code, by their ability to meet our dress and grooming standards. By their ability to perform sufficiently well in the classroom. All those dimensions are a part of a portion of the revenue share that we commit to every single student.
Jane Clayson Johnson: And if they don’t meet that standard, what is the response?
Keith Vorkink: There’s a reduction in the revenue share with them.
Jane Clayson Johnson: How do you keep up with this kind of change, this new exposure, this new money? I mean, it’s one thing for a professional athlete to deal with, but for a college student to all of a sudden have these resources.
Shane Reese: We set up something called the Built4Life Center that really was intended to educate young people. And by the way, these student-athletes are young people, many of whom, who don’t come from communities where there is that kind of training, that kind of exposure. This Built4Life Center was set up in part to respond to your very question, how do we help prepare them for this new world, not only for NIL, but also for going out and making a living? How do they go out and become self-reliant? How do they prepare for the really rigors of post NCAA participation? Because the reality is, the vast majority of our student-athletes don’t go on to play professional sports. And I am so grateful for our athletic department being really front-runners and having such great forethought in how to be responsive to this real need facing our student-athletes.
Keith Vorkink: And it included things, President, like, if you get money now that you weren’t getting before through revenue sharing, how to manage it for the long run.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Speaking of the mission statement, I am curious how you mentioned the honor code, President. How does BYU’s honor code impact recruiting?
Keith Vorkink: For at least a period of time, it felt like the honor code and dress and grooming standards were just a constraint, frankly. And, but in recent years, we lead as we go out and recruit students. We don’t wait till the end and talk about it, but we lead with the honor code and dress and grooming standards. Conversation one. And it both reduces and increases our pool of student-athletes. There are some who say, that’s not for me, but there are some who identify and say, I want that. And we’ve been getting higher rated student-athletes since we started that strategy of leading with it than before.
Shane Reese: And I’ll just say that the amazing thing to me is that for so many students, rather than a deterrent — we hear this from student-athlete after student-athlete — they view this as a strategic advantage. Now that doesn’t mean we’re perfect. Let me be clear. We have work to do in terms of our honor code compliance.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Well, I mean, to be very frank, Jake Retzlaff left the university over this.
Shane Reese: He did. Absolutely. And one of the things that I will say is that I think that we appreciated what Jake Retzlaff brought to our athletic department while he played for our football team. He was a remarkable quarterback, and we wish him well in all that he’s doing. In fact, I just saw that his stats at Tulane this year are remarkable. And we couldn’t be happier for Jake. Like any other young person, there are potential for mistakes to happen. And we acknowledge those mistakes, but we also acknowledge that when you come to BYU and you say you want to play for this institution, you commit to a certain standard.
Jane Clayson Johnson: And I will say, I mean, I’ve been watching BYU sports a long time. I went to BYU. It seems like you’re recruiting a lot more athletes, more than ever before, who are not members of the church.
Keith Vorkink: That is exactly ... And sometimes those are the ones that are most attracted to our — to the environment that is created by the honor code and dress and grooming standards — the most. We had this incredible basketball recruit come last year, Egor Dёmin. Could have gone anywhere. And I don’t know if you saw the press conference when he left, he talked about how BYU changed him as a basketball player and as a person. And it’s that kind of experience, those who can at least understand and not be frustrated with the honor code that can come and thrive here professionally, as Egor did.
Jane Clayson Johnson: There is a ripple effect of revenue sharing that I’d like to ask you about because for many schools, even the powerhouse schools, it’s clear that fans will bear much of the cost of this revenue sharing for players with players. Some schools are raising the cost of tickets. They’re raising the cost of concessions. I was reading that Tennessee added a talent fee to the price of their tickets. Clemson added an athletics surcharge of $150 to every student’s tuition bill. How do you see that playing out at BYU? Will that happen here, President?
Shane Reese: I will say that with no question, no doubt. And let me reiterate that there is no way that our tuition will have fees associated with our athletic department. I just do not see that day coming. And I can say that resolutely, that is just not part of who we are. We have certainly experienced some adjustment in our ticket prices. As a result of our entrance into the Big 12, we are competitive with most institutions, as far as our ticket pricing. And we’ve tried to not be anywhere near the top end, but we also are not the lowest ticket in the Big 12. And I think that will continue to be kind of our mode of operation.
Jane Clayson Johnson: When you look 10 years ahead, what does success look like?
Shane Reese: Ten years from now, I think is whether we are able to say we were true to our mission. Candidly, if we can’t say that, not only will it not be success, but I worry that it would be to the detriment of the existence of our athletic program. The people to whom I report care very deeply about the mission of this institution. And to the extent that the athletic department is an ambassador for that mission, promotes that mission, allows for high visibility into that mission, I think that they feel like the athletic department is an asset. And so I think at the end of the day, it will be, are we able to maintain a trueness to our mission? If we’re unable to do that, we will not be successful.
Shane Reese: And certainly the critics of BYU will find ways in which we aren’t. And we’re not perfect. We have work to do, both as an institution and as an athletic department. But I will say that we’re striving, that we’re working toward setting. And I think as long as we’re making efforts, that we’re striving, that we’re committed to that aim of being true to our mission, I think we’ll be successful. I look at the next 10 years as exactly what you describe. An exciting time to be part of, not only BYU, but of BYU athletics. I see it as an opportunity for us to be able to trumpet to the world who we are and what makes us different. Maybe even peculiar in some cases.
Jane Clayson Johnson: President Reese, I’m going to give you the last word because I must ask you about the BYU-Utah game. There’s a video that went viral of you being body surfed around the crowd. I saw it and I thought, is that AI? But no. Well, I’ll … is it? Was it you?
Shane Reese: It was definitely me. I’ll just say, people ask me all the time, what is the best thing about being BYU president? And I tell them without question, it is being with our students. I love being with our students.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Body surf the crowd?
Shane Reese: I didn’t exactly have that in mind when we went down to the field. But I will tell you, being with our students is the best. And so when I saw our students celebrating, getting so excited and I happened to, in the midst of this wild crowd, ran into one of our football players, and I was just congratulating on an amazing win. He lifted me up. I think just in excitement. And someone else caught my feet. I figured, this is the church of joy and I’m going to have a joyful night.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure.
Shane Reese: Thank you so much. Thanks for being with us. We’re so grateful.
Jane Clayson Johnson: Thank you and good luck. All the best to you.
Shane Reese: We’ll take it. We’ll take all the luck we can get.