Editor’s note: The following is a transcript of the episode. It's been edited for clarity.
Boyd Matheson: Addiction in all its forms is inflicting damage on individuals, families and communities in epidemic proportions. The scourge has been faced with myriad methods, treatments and programs. Sadly, relapse is more common than recovery. Can changing the mental framing for current alcoholics or those addicted to or dependent on drugs change the game? Todd Sylvester offers hope, healing and a path to transcending current negative behavior on this episode of "Therefore, What?"
"Therefore, What?" is a weekly podcast that breaks down the news while breaking down barriers, challenges you and the status quo, explores timely topics and timeless principles, and leaves you confident to face what's next. I'm Boyd Matheson, opinion editor for the Deseret News. And this is "Therefore, What?"
All right, we're very pleased today to be joined by Todd Sylvester. Todd Sylvester inspires. This is a conversation that matters to me, it's a conversation that we don't have nearly enough. And that is all-around addiction and recovery. And Todd, we've known each other for a number of years, you've got an extraordinary story. And you hear people a lot of times, especially in the addiction and recovery space, talk about making lemons out of lemonade. That's one of those common things that people like to brag about. But you had a lemonade stand experience that literally changed the direction of your life. Tell us about that.
Todd Sylvester: Absolutely. And thanks for having me, Boyd. And it's been great to know you over the years. And it's an honor to be on this today. Yeah, I had an amazing experience that changed the course of my life forever at a lemonade stand. You know, I was in the process of trying to get clean, I was addicted to alcohol and other drugs, I had done everything under the sun. But even worse than that I was just a miserable person. I honestly had thoughts of not wanting to be here, wanting to end my life, which kind of goes hand in hand with addiction, you get that hopeless feeling. And I was really struggling. And at the same time, I was a bartender, which is not good for an alcoholic. At the time I thought it was great, free booze, you know, this is awesome. But as a bartender, I got tips from the waiters and waitresses and then also anyone that would sit at the bar, and I got really good at getting tips. I'd always give the first drink free. And so it would always guarantee me a pretty good tip. I'd also get a lot of change, people would leave change and so I'd keep this change in the cup holders of my car, like nickels, dimes, and quarters. And you know, I was kind of like in relapse mode. I had a really amazing experience with a friend. You know, I had said a prayer for the first time in my life asking for help. And I actually received some help. But from that point, up until this moment at the lemonade stand, I was still really struggling. This voice in my head was telling me I was pathetic and no good. And you'll never be clean. And you know, just this vicious cycle of misery.
And I'll never forget it. I was driving. It was on a Saturday, it was a beautiful sunny day. And I was driving out of my neighborhood. And out of the corner of my eye I see this little girl selling lemonade. No big deal. I drive right on past. And I had this impression come over me, this like, you know, turn around and give her all the money in your car. And at this time I had about $40 with quarters, nickels and dimes. It was what you always refer to as it was one of those Kairos moments. But I didn't know it at the time. Like, well, that'd be cool to give this girl all this money. So I flipped my car around and I pull up and there's this cute little fourth grade girl sitting there, you know, smiling and I said, how much, and she said, 25 cents. I said, I'll take one so she pours it, you know, hands it to me said I set it on the dash and I tell her to cup her hands. And I said cup your hands, hold on, and I start scooping all this money into her hands, right? And she's freaking out. She's like, no way. I'm like, hold on, I got more, you know, and I just keep scooping and it takes me like eight or nine scoops to get all of it. And I'm getting every little one I can find, like here's more. And she's just freaking out. And she's just beaming. And the last scoop, she drops on a table and runs into her house. And in my mind, I'm thinking she's gonna go tell her parents some dude just gave her a million bucks. And as I pull away, you know, for the listeners out there. I don't know if you've ever cried so hard you feel like you're cleansing your soul. This was a soul-cleansing cry. I have to pull my car over. And I just started to cry. And for the first time I could ever remember I actually made someone's day. Because as a drug addict, you become very self-centered. It's like, I'm going to rob from you, I'll cheat you, I'll manipulate you to get what I want. And here I am doing something, I made this girl's probably decade, right? And I have to put my car in park because I'm crying so hard. And I just put my face in my hands and sob. And I cry for like, I don't know, a long time. It felt like 20 minutes. And in that moment, I felt like I mattered. I wanted to be clean. I wanted to help other people. I'm like, I want to do this again. And you know, a lot of addicts kind of have this mentality of all or nothing, right? And I had it and I still do. I'm all in or I'm all out and I said if this girl's there next Saturday, I'm going to give her all my money. So on purpose, the next Saturday I drive by and sure enough, there she is selling lemonade. And I give her all my money again. And I do this every Saturday for the next 2 1/2 months. And every time I pull away from there, I start to cry again.
And this desire of being clean, and wanting to be good, and realizing I am good was just, you know, sitting in my soul again and igniting — there's a famous quote by Ferdinand Foch. He says the most powerful weapon on earth is the human soul on fire. This lit my soul on fire. And so that was kind of the experience in a nutshell. But yeah, it really did change the course of my life.
BM: Amazing what can happen at a lemonade stand. And just so you know, I have taken that to be my new mode. I did it just yesterday. I flew back in from Japan, I was driving home, there was a lemonade stand in my neighborhood and I just emptied the cup holder. So we're paying it forward, just a little bit. You hit so many things in there, Todd. So many people who are addicted, or who have some of those challenges, they do get in that vicious cycle. Because on one hand, they are being very selfish and very self-centered, manipulative, lying, cheating, all of those things that happen. And at the same time, their sense of self-worth is just gone. And I think it's why recovery is such a challenge. And it's so hard to really help people get on that path. But you've really made it your life's work to help people get on that path. And so let's talk about that for a minute. Tell us about the kinds of things you're doing.
TS: Sure. So, you know, one of the things I'm very passionate about is belief systems. You know, we all have a belief system. And our belief system's got a lot of good in it. And there's some negative things and irrational things in our beliefs. And this goes along with everybody. Drug addicts' belief system is, it's probably 90 percent irrational and negative versus the 10 percent that may be positive or somewhat good. And the reason why I'm passionate about belief systems is because belief dictates the way we behave every time. And so what I do is, with clients, or if I'm speaking to a group, I focus on the belief system, not the behavior. So if I'm sitting in front of a heroin addict, duh, don't do heroin anymore. That's easy to say that, right? Stop doing that. Well, no, it's like why do you do that? What's the underlying belief that you have about yourself? It's the story you tell yourself about yourself. And that story has been playing over and over in our heads, typically with a drug addict, for decades sometimes. And it becomes their reality, it becomes their belief. Right? And so what I try and do is I go in, and I unravel that fairy tale story. And I call it a fairy tale, because it isn't real. You know, I was a liar, cheater, thief, criminal, manipulator when I was using.
But to my core, and it chokes me up, it's not who I am. And what I love to do with someone who's struggling with drug addiction is scraping all that away. Who are you really to your core? And I always try to remind them when you were this tall, you know, for your listeners, I'm, you know, like when you're 1 or 2 years old. Who were you then? And they start listing off these qualities. That's who you are. But you've created a story from there until now that's irrational. And so that's one of my favorite things to do, is to unravel that story and go, see, you've been telling yourself a lie this whole time. And that's what I did with me. I was telling myself a lie the whole time.
BM: So I want to drill down on that a little bit, because part of your approach that I really love — there's lots of great programs out there that do a lot of good.They all have components that work. Some better, some less better. But you have something that I think is so critical, and that is some of the programs often have people label and identify themselves as I'm an addict, I'm an alcoholic, and it becomes part of their introduction. And you take a very different approach to that. Tell us why.
TS: Well, labels are cages, or I should say they can be. Labels can also set us free, you know. So one of my favorite things to do, again, if I'm sitting in front of a drug addict, one of my clients, and they'll say, yeah, I'm an alcoholic. And I'll say, well, did you have a drink today? And they'll say, no. Did you have one yesterday? No. And I'll say so are you really right now? And the truth is, you're clean, right? At this moment, you're clean. But yet you label yourself a drug addict, or an alcoholic. Now I get the reasoning behind it. I'm not denying that I've got a problem. On Aug. 5 this year, I'll be clean 30 years. But I know that if I go to a bar tonight and drink, I'm back in my addiction again. But I'm clean. I am clean. It's possessive. I really believe that.
You know, if it's OK, if I can take a little liberty and share a story. It proves this point so powerfully. So I had a wonderful opportunity back in December to speak at the Utah State Prison. OK, and I've never spoken there before. I've spoken to detention centers and this and that. This was something brand new and I'll be honest, I was nervous. So I get there. I have to do a background check. Have to walk through a metal detector. All the doors. There's three guards there. And they're like, OK, we're going to go in the gymnasium. They'll be probably 125 inmates. And I'm like, really, whoa. And they said, if something goes down, make sure you're standing by one of us. And I'm like, is there something going to go down? So anyway, no pressure. So we get in there. And it's a cinderblock gymnasium. It's just small, little, you can hear every little sound, every chair movement, everything. And they have three of the inmates give five minutes each about their story before I get up there. And they want me to take an hour and a half. And I'm sitting there going, my goodness. Am I going to be able to do this? This is like freaking me out a little bit. My heart's pounding. And I'll tell you what, when I stood up after these three guys went before me, they set the stage man, they had these guys like, in the palm of their hand. They were all listening. I kid you not, there was not one guy talking to their neighbor. It was like eyes on me, focused. It was the most really, truly I've never felt so much humility. It was amazing. Well, I share my story. You do a lot of speaking events, Boyd where, you know, you've kind of got the audience, you've got them. That's what it felt like. I'm like, man, these guys are listening to everything. And I have this impression again, ask them this question. So I asked them, how many of you are criminals? Raise your hand. Every hand goes up, right? And they're looking at me like, dude, we're in a prison. And I said, why are you lying to yourselves? I said, why are you lying? And the hands start to slowly go down. And they're still looking at me like, what are you talking about? We're in prison. I said, how many of you by the show of hands committed a crime today? Raise your hand right now. Not one hand goes up. I said, how many of you committed a crime yesterday, not one hand goes up. And I said, see, you have been lying to yourself. And then I asked them these questions. I said, how many of you've told the truth today? And it looked like every hand went up, there might have been a couple didn't go up, but every hand goes up. And then I said, how many of you have followed the rules today? Every hand goes up. I said, how many of you have done the right thing when no one was looking today? I'm not kidding. Every hand went up. And then I said, how many of you have shown respect to your cellmate today? Every hand goes up. And I said, see, you guys just told me you're honest, you have integrity. You're caring and you're respectful. And you've been calling yourselves criminals.
Boyd, had I not been there I wouldn't have believed it myself. I got a standing ovation for three minutes. And it was this loud, because it was cinderblock, it was crazy. And there was this one guy like waving his arms flagging me down. He goes, can I come give you a hug? I'm like, absolutely. And he comes up and hugs me. And afterwards, everyone was saying we've never heard that before. And I said, you label yourself a criminal, then guess what? You're a criminal. Believe that you have it, and you have it. It's an old Latin proverb, right? So stop it. Yes. You've committed criminal behavior. Let's don't deny that. Let's own it. Yeah, I screwed up. But today, you're clean. Why don't we say that we're clean, that we're good. We're not criminals. We're whole right now. And focus on that. So that's why I'm passionate about, you know, labeling ourselves the correct way, I guess is a way to put it. So thanks for letting me share that.
BM: I love that. It's interesting. You probably could have also told them that there were probably very few places in America that could answer those questions the way they did. Whether that was in a business, whether that's in the halls of Congress, or wherever it is, there were probably a lot of people who didn't tell the truth on that day, or lied or hadn't treated the spouse or a child well. So they may have been the far superior in terms of behavior for that day, for that moment.
So let's continue down that path. Because I do think it's so important that we do get the right framing, in terms of dealing and for our listeners today, whether you're struggling, whether you got a spouse, or a child, or a grandchild, or a neighbor or a colleague at work that you know is struggling, these are all things that can be helpful. And I think sometimes we sort of shrug our shoulders a little bit, it's like, well, you know I know Mary's got a problem, or I know Dave is struggling. But a lot of times we don't know what to do. We don't know how to start the conversation. Give us some insight there.
TS: That's a great question. And I hear this question more than any other question, it seems like. I've got a friend or I've got my son or a daughter who's struggling, I don't even know what to say to them. You know, and that is a tough thing, because it's so sensitive. Because typically the person who's struggling, typically I say this, not everybody. They're very guarded about it. They get very defensive. And so the person getting ready to ask the question knows that I'm going to be faced with some confrontation here, right. So here's the thing, and everyone's looking for this magic way of, and it really is sitting down and going, I need to share my truth with you. And saying it like that really kind of sets a different kind of tone, almost. And I've put this to the test, where I just want to share my truth with you. And then it's like, I'm worried about you. And here's why. And then you list this off. It's literally about just doing it. Because a lot of times the fear is unwarranted. Afterwards you're like, yeah, there was some confrontation. But I feel so good that I spoke my truth to them, right? Because we don't want to go to bed that night not sharing our truth. Had we, we could have maybe saved someone's life.
Maybe they needed to hear it, even though they were defensive. They still deep down are going I'm so glad they said something. And it's literally like, I'm here to help you, but you're going to have to do it. And that's the other hard part is, you hear this all the time. Well, they're going to have to want to change. It's true. At the end of the day, the person is going to have to want to do that. And the other thing I'd add to that. So first, have the conversation. Be willing to just have the courage to just do it. You're not perfect at it. But you'll be surprised how good you'd be at it.
BM: And then just as you get into that second point, I just want to re-emphasize because I think this is so important, is that we do have to get comfortable having the uncomfortable conversations. That's a big part of that program to begin. But when you're talking about truth, when you're talking about principles, rather than just the behavior, it sort of shifts the conversation where that person who may be addicted or dependent on something, they're not going to feel attacked because you're not going after their behavior. You're not trying to fix them. You're just creating space for that principle conversation to start happening.
TS: Thank you for pointing that out. That is very well said. The second point is, is once you've kind of established this, I'm sharing my truth. And you know you have them, at least they're listening is, is I always like to ask the question, who are you? And most people can't answer that question. If you were to randomly ask people on the road, who are you? They'd be like, I don't know. Because we don't usually ask that question. But it's an interesting one. If you think about it, when we're little kids, we know who we are. We may not be able to articulate it because we're young kids, but deep to our heart, we know who we are. And we lose sight of that. I said that wrong. We forget it. Sorry, we don't lose it. We forget, we never lose. And that's one of the things I like telling someone who needs the help. Like, who are you really to your core? And I'll even go back. Who were you when you were this tall? Again, listeners. I'm like, you know, 1, 2 years old. And it causes them to reflect and if they're being genuine, at that point I was honest, I was joyful. I was brave. I was courageous, I was teachable. And I go, where did you get those characteristics? Where do they even come from? And you want to get them to go to that point where I was just born with them? Because that's the truth. Yeah. And then it's like, see, that's who you really are. And this behavior you're doing right now? I know you, deep down you don't want to keep doing this. And so I have found those that little simple thing, it's like the wall comes down. It doesn't always go that way. But most of the time, you'd be surprised how open the person is to that type of conversation.
BM: It's an important thing for us to recognize in a lot of those settings. I think we sort of have this mind, we either have the mindset of this big massive intervention moment where, you know, we're going to read them the riot act, and you know, take them off somewhere. But I think a lot of times it is just asking the questions, being willing to listen and to have a different kind of dialogue. Again, not just on the behavior. Every addict knows that their behavior is bad, right? They really know that. So you don't need to tell them that over and over and over again, they get that. But when you start reminding them, and I'm glad you use that term, remind them who they are. And those principles, it's very easy, where they can start saying, yeah, I'm not in alignment with who I really am. And I would remind our listeners that this applies every bit as much to those who aren't dealing with an addiction or substance issue. That these are the same things when we talk about what makes us so that we're not happy, things that prevent us from having meaningful, deep relationships, that allow us to express our talents and abilities in unique and powerful ways like we're supposed to be doing. It often starts with this kind of conversation.
I know you've got a couple of resources and tools, you do a lot of things in terms of a coaching format, which I am a big fan of because it is how real change and accountability happens. But you also have some other resources. I know you got a book coming out in July ."I Am Recovered." Tell us about the title of that.
TS: Yes, a great title, "I Am Recovered." It chokes me up again. I apologize. You know, one of the things that's taught in the addiction world is you'll always be in recovery. And I get the reasoning behind it. I mean, I get the point is you don't want to deny and say, well, you know, I get it, if I go back to drinking I'm in trouble. But I think what it does is to me that seems like that's a long life sentence. You know, I'm going to be in recovery the rest of my life. And I really believe, Boyd, that you can be recovered. Like, it's game over. It's done. Now, again, I really believe I'm recovered. It's over. I will not drink again. I'm smart enough to know that I'm not going to go hang out at the bar tonight. I'm not going to go hang around people who are doing drugs, per se, I'm not going to do that. I'll go help people in those areas, for sure, all day long. But it's a mindset. It's again, belief dictates behavior. If I truly believe I'm recovered, man, and it's a powerful, powerful thing that will propel me in the right direction, right? And I'm not saying this in an arrogant way — look at me, I'm recovered. It's more of that belief system internally, because I wasn't born a drug addict. I wasn't born to shoot heroin in my arms. That's not why I'm here. So it's just about, no, I'm, I'm recovered. Or in other words, again, I know who I am. That's a powerful place to be. And so that's why that title means so much. It's a mindset. It's like, this is who I am moving forward.
BM: That's such an important lesson for all of us to take in. Again, so often, whether it's diet, or drugs or relationships, or pick your poison there. So often we get wrapped around these inappropriate labels, inappropriate judgment that always puts us in a position of being less than. I think one of the real challenges in our society is we have so much comparison going on anyway, between, you know, the perfect pictures that everyone's posting on Facebook, or Instagram or whatever social media channel they're on, that it causes us to always be comparing to something else. And whether that's comparing to the life that other people have, or comparing to what we think we should be or could be, as opposed to what we are.
I always say that looking at your life through comparison is always fatal vision. And so I really love and appreciate that you have chosen this word recovered. Because that does give you power and it allows you to function from a position of strength, so that you can deal with issues. Again, it's not about being in denial that everything's fine and dandy. But it puts you in a position of strength. Talk about some of your experiences with some of your clients, in terms of getting them to that moment where they are no longer functioning as an addict, in a position of weakness, less than and being recovered or empowered or moving forward?
TS: That's a great question. You know, there's several that come to mind, but one that I just recently had, this kid who he was an alcoholic, and also a drug addict. He was doing heroin and alcohol, you know, just tag-teaming them. And when I met with him he had gone through detox, and he'd been clean for I think he was going on day 7, which was a very good place for him to be in. And I said, well, why are you here? My first question, he goes because I can't stop doing drugs. And I said, oh, really? I said, did you do drugs today? He goes, no. And I go, did you do them yesterday? No. Did you do the day before? No. Did you do on the day before? No. I go, did you hear what you just said? You're here because you can't stop. But you've stopped. Again, not denying that there's an issue here. There's a lot to dig into. But I hit him right off the bat with that. And it was just like, I've never thought of it that way. And I think that we have this amazing gift of agency. It's a gift, man. And I think we take it for granted how powerful that can be. Both negatively and positively. And this kid, it was like this light bulb turned on. And he was like, yeah, I have stopped. And so again, I'm trying to lay this foundation to start to stand your life on again. OK. OK. So I can choose to not use today? Yes, you can. You really, truly can. And you did. And you've actually chose the last seven days to do that. And here you are, you're not jumping the fence to get out of here to go use. I mean, look at you, you're sitting here even. How did you do that? And he's like, I'm choosing to stay. And so it's again, it's about looking at it for what it really truly is. And so those little things like that leading them forward.
The other thing I talked about is you're not powerless, you're actually powerful. You know, we have this bottled water between Boyd and I. If that was vodka, yeah, OK, it's vodka. I don't have to grab it. It doesn't have power over me. It's a liquid. It's in a plastic container. It doesn't control me. I'm in charge of me. I might have the thought of, oh, I'd like to maybe drink that. The thought comes in. But I'm not that thought. And that's the other thing I teach my clients, you're not that. So I don't have to go grab it and put it to my lips and drink it. I don't have to and I can choose not to, even though the thought was there. And then you learn how to, you know, kind of segregate from that thought. Realizing that's not me. I can choose not to grab it, which I do.
BM: I think those choices are so important. I want to talk for a minute, because I think this is all interconnected. Because often we talk about relapse. And that's sort of the peak and valley of addiction and dependence. It's also my yo-yo diet and a host of other new year's resolutions that don't make it past Jan. 21. But that's a pattern for a lot of us in terms of just that. We get committed to something, we get going and then we either get distracted or discouraged or frustrated or feeling less than, and then we kind of throw it all out the window. And so talk to me for a minute about how you prevent that. And then how do you get to the point where, because you described this earlier, you talked about this life sentence of recovery, which I love the visual of that. Because for a lot of us, again, whether it's diet, or dependence, we sort of feel like we gotta white-knuckle our way through everything. We gotta just hang on for one more day. And that's impossible. How do we get past that?
TS: Well, I think it's about overcoming some ignorance, OK, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, meaning, if we don't understand something fully, then a lot of times that information, or lack of, will control us in a negative way. So for a simple example, I don't like the word sober. Because the definition of sober is the periods in between using. So if I say I'm sober, I'm saying I'm in between the period before I drink again. I like the word clean. Clean is, again, recovered. I'm done. It's game over. I'm not white-knuckling it. I've made the decision. I'm not counting days. You know, I think it was Tony Robbins that says if you're counting the days, it's not lasting change. And I know there's people out there that do that. And I have no problem counting the days if you're celebrating, hey, I made it a year. This is amazing. Good for you. I'll be the first one to celebrate with you. But if I'm counting every second, white-knuckle, holding on for dear life, it's because really what I'm saying is I'm not done. So that plays a huge part in that, honestly, is understanding what we're really saying here and overcoming it. And we talk about these simple little, well quit saying sober. Say you're clean. You're done. It's game over. And at first people are like, what? They think I'm crazy. But again, what I'm trying to teach them is how powerful they are. And they knew it again when they were 1, 2, this tall, just a little kid. They know it to their core. And we've just forgotten. So that's all I'm doing is going back to that. And you're right. It's not just about addiction. It's about anything in our life, right? Anything. It's about understanding who we really are. And then we have the power to overcome those certain things.
BM: That's fantastic. And I know you have a belief cast. Not a podcast, but a belief cast, which I love. And we'll get this up on our website as well in terms of where people can go in and get some of those resources that you've been talking about today.
You know, the podcast is "Therefore, What? And so this is the moment where we ask the "Therefore, What?" question. So people have been listening to this podcast for 25 minutes or so now. What's the "Therefore, What?" What do you hope people think different? What do you hope they do different after listening to this podcast?
TS: Great question. And what I'm hoping is that anyone who's out there who's struggling or has a family member who's struggling is that we are powerful human beings. We do need help and we always will be in a position where we need help. I mean, I wouldn't be sitting here had I not had several hundred people helping me. But at the end of the day, what I'm hoping people will walk away with is that I am a powerful human being. Not an arrogant or cocky, but a humble, confident, capable, teachable, brave human being. And I want you to start labeling yourself those things. I am those things and add your name to it. I, Todd, am capable. I, Todd, am brave. I, Todd, am teachable. Versus I am broken, I am damaged, I am an alcoholic, I'm less than, I'm not good enough, I'll never make it, you know. And so that's really my big hopefully takeaway for your listeners is they'll hold on to that and start telling themselves the truth versus the fairy tale lie.
BM: ToddSylvesterInspires.com is the place to gather all the information there. And again, whether this is for yourself, for a loved one, a spouse, a colleague, a neighbor, a friend, these are principles, which is what we love to focus on on this "Therefore, What?" program. Because principles drive behavior, and that's how we really make transformation and are able to really do and fulfill everything that we're capable of.
Todd Sylvester, thanks for joining us. Remember after the story is told, after the principle is presented, after the discussion and the debate have been had, the question for all of us is "Therefore, What?" Don't miss an episode, subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you're listening today. And be sure to rate this episode and leave us a review. Follow us on Deseretnews.com/Tw and subscribe to our newsletter. This is Boyd Matheson, opinion editor for the Deseret News. Thanks for joining us on "Therefore, What?"