During halftime of the TNT-aired Utah Jazz game versus the New Orleans Pelicans on Thursday night, the quartet of Ernie Johnson, Kenny Smith, Charles Barkley and Shaquille O’Neal spent a good chunk of time debating whether Jazz All-Star guard Donovan Mitchell can become a superstar.

Smith opened the conversation by noting that teams like the Brooklyn Nets and Los Angeles Lakers have made major moves to become championship contenders, then asked, “My question to the panel: Donovan Mitchell is at the point of superstardom where he can take you there, or he’s still All-Star status?”

Here is a transcript of the conversation from there:

O’Neal: “He needs to be second or third option.”

Smith: “Really?”

O’Neal: “Yeah. He has enough talent to do it, but —”

Smith: “I’m seeing that he scores at will and I’m seeing he’s overpowering people.”

Barkley: “That’s not what a superstar is. A superstar’s a guy who can win the game multiple ways.”

Smith: “True.”

Barkley: “A lot of guys who are great offensive players, but a superstar’s a guy, who can win a game, if he’s having a bad shooting night, he can get a lot of rebounds or he can play defense. Donovan’s a terrific player.”

Johnson: “He’s a scoring machine.”

Barkley: “Yeah, but that’s why he’s an All-Star, Ernie. Listen, when guys try to explain this type stuff, it seems like it’s old guys hating. It’s not old guys hating. It’s like, OK, he’s a great scorer. I will give you that, but he makes zero impact on the rest of the game.”

O’Neal: “And not only that, he’s a great scorer, I agree with that, but if he’s not scoring, what else can he do?”

After a humorous debate about whether O’Neal had repeated Barkley, Smith said, “I always say that, you know my rule of being a superstar. There’s five or six ways to affect the game: Scoring, rebounding and assists, defense, leadership, pace of game. Superstars lead it in three to four categories every single night. Three or four of those six categories. All-Stars two, so I’d say, ‘Is he getting to the point where he can?”

O’Neal: “He’s close.”

Barkley went on to say how he could win games with his rebounding, and Smith observed that Barkley could also control the pace of the game.

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Johnson started to wrap up the discussion by saying, “We gotta split. I’ll leave ya with this. In (Mitchell’s) career: One double-digit rebound game, one double-digit assist game.”

Barkley: “That’s not gonna get it done.”

Smith: “OK.”

Johnson: “Just trying to back up your point.”

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