After a quarter of a century and more than 6,000 programs, talk show host Phil Donahue is completely unrepentant about everything.
The man who pioneered the audience-participation talk genre and is best known for topics like cross-dressing, lesbian nuns and women who hate their husbands says he doesn't regret a single show he's done."Much of the criticism we get is from lofty moralists who don't see the show, who conclude in their own self-righteous way that the world is going to hell and talk shows are leading the way," Donahue said.
"Sure, we're silly some of the time. We have to have features. We have to be silly. We have to hit the host in the face with a pie sometimes. And, unlike 25 years ago, we have a lot of competition. It's very hard to draw a crowd into the tent today on what you and I want to do."
Donahue, who spoke by telephone from his New York City office, said he's unconcerned about criticism that he's gone to far with some of his shows.
"Too far? I hope so," he said. "I think our problem is that the media has not gone far enough."
For a sampling of just how far Phil has gone, NBC (Ch. 2) is airing "Donahue: The 25th Anniversary" on Sunday at 8 p.m. It's two hours of clips from past shows and tributes from his competitors - and emulators - Sally Jessy Raphael, Joan Rivers, Jenny Jones, Larry King, Maury Povich, Geraldo Rivera, Jerry Springer, Montel Williams and Oprah Winfrey.
"I am very proud of the fact that for 25 years we have kicked some very big tires and remained commercially alive," Donahue said. "We have blasted the medical establishment, the Roman Catholic Church, Christian fundamentalism and General Motors. We have thundered against people who claim to talk to God and God talked back."
"We had to do a whole show on Doctors Who Hate Donahue because we were so aggressive blowing whistles on that profession."
Donahue is quick to tick off a list of topics he was doing before they became widely publicized - date rape in the early '70s, child sex abuse and spouse abuse.
"These are issues we've dealt with since day one," he said. "We filmed an abortion in the early '70s a put it on television.
"We put a gay person on in 1968, and people said we were sensational and went too far and their kids would catch it if they saw it. We had Jane Fonda on in '68 or '69 condemning the Vietnam War.
"I think people always wanted their television to provide this kind of platform, and we were the first to provide it."
He's also quick to point out that he's had plenty of guests with whom he has not agreed. He mentioned Rep. Henry Hyde (R-Ill.), Reed Irvine, Robert Dornan, Donald Wildmon and even then-Vice President George Bush.
"The test is not so much what your own politics are as who has access to your platform," Donahue said. "The show is not a place for me to feature just people with whom I agree."
And he does not believe that there are too many liberal voices on television today.
"There's room for everyone out there. Hey, `Rush Limbaugh' is syndicated by the company that owns the `Donahue' Show," Donahue said. "Rush Limbaugh makes it easier to be a liberal."
The well-known story of how Donahue began involving his audience in the show now seems almost apocryphal, but it's true nonetheless. Back in 1967, the host of a local afternoon variety show in Dayton, Ohio, left for Los Angeles, and Donahue - then a radio host - was recruited to make the switch to TV. Along with the time slot, he inherited the studio audience from the variety show.
And Donahue himself was one of his greatest doubters.
"I was very apprehensive about it. I just didn't know if it would work," he said. "I thought it would be visually dull, which it was."
But during a break, he headed out into the audience and let them start asking questions.
"It was an accident that we had a studio audience sitting there watching me interview Madalyn Murray O'Hair. (His first guest.) We suddenly looked up to discover that some of the most exciting moments came from the studio audience."
And, even when the show worked on a local level, Donahue never expected to be seen anywhere but the Midwest.
"We never had grand visions," he said. "Never in our wildest dreams did we expect to be on coast-to-coast."
He acknowledges the criticism he's received for male-bashing.
"I came out of a very traditional environment," he said. "Then I suddenly found myself interviewing people like Gloria Steinem and being exposed to the women's movement in a very, very forceful way. Then I had a daughter, which really politicizes a lot of males.
"The result of all of this was that someone decided I was really sensitive. When they're passing out insults, I'll take that one."
Questions have arisen recently about Donahue's future. There have been rumors that he might run for office after his contract expires in the spring of 1994.
"I don't want to be cute about this, but I don't know what I'll do," he said. "I may re-up after '93-94. It's never been more exciting than it is now. It really is a wonderful moment in my career."
"Would I want to make an effort to run for some public office? I don't know. I'm not sure. I don't know how electable I'd be. I have a lot of baggage.
"Can't you just see my opponent running ads with clips of me in that dress?"