Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy joined Lex Fridman for a three-hour conversation this past weekend, discussing history, a cease-fire, incoming President Trump, Elon Musk and more.
Fridman, an American podcaster and computer scientist, was born in Tajikistan and grew up in Moscow. The conversation was conducted in English, Russian and Ukrainian, and Fridman published the original and a dubbed version on Sunday.
Zelenskyy says he agrees with Trump on ‘peace through strength’
Regarding Donald Trump heading back to the White House, Zelenskyy said, “I believe we share a position on peace through strength.”
“Do you think (Russian President Vladimir Putin) wants to end the war?” Zelenskyy asked. “That’s what you suggested; I think that’s naive, I’m sorry, with all due respect, it’s naive to think he wants to finish the war.”
However, Zelenskyy believes that Trump will bring new possibilities to end the war. “I really count on him, and I think our people really count on him,” he said. “So, he has enough power to pressure Putin, not into wanting to stop it. No, he will not want to. To pressure him to actually stop it. That’s the difference.”
Having grown up in Russia, Fridman explained what he described as his own “naive dream” where Trump, Zelenskyy and Putin would sit down together, negotiate a ceasefire deal and find a path to long-term peace.
Zelenskyy responded about the ceasefire, mentioning a deal made between France’s Emmanuel Macron, Germany’s Angela Merkel, Putin and himself in December 2019 where they agreed on a continuation of gas sales, an exchange of people and a ceasefire.
“Regarding the ceasefire, well, they started killing us in about a month, so, I called him, and I told him, ‘We agreed on a ceasefire, didn’t we? Well it wasn’t a piece of toilet paper, was it?’ This is serious business, or so it seemed,” Zelenskyy said. “‘Merkel, Macron, you and I, we agreed on this together. A cease-fire is important, isn’t it?’”
“After that I called him a few more times,” Zelenskyy continued. “I think I only had two or three calls with him in total. I asked him for a ceasefire, he told me, ‘It couldn’t be.’”
Referencing a Russian siege in Mariupol affecting 20,000-30,000 people, Zelenskyy said, “What if we just arranged a ceasefire without understanding what would happen next? Without understanding what will happen to Ukraine’s security guarantees. What about the millions of children in the occupied territories? What should I tell them? What am I to tell them?”
Fridman responded, “War is hell. But let me say again, we must find a path to peace.”
“There is one,” Zelenskyy said. He said a partial membership in NATO would give Ukraine a strong security guarantee. He added, “With all due respect to the United States and to the administration, I don’t want the same situation like we had with Biden. I ask for sanctions now, please, and weapons now. And then we will see.”
Zelenskyy says, ‘I trust President Trump’
Zelenskyy explained the importance of Europe having a voice in an agreement between Ukraine and Russia, and he mentioned Trump’s influence over European presidents.
He said, “By the way, I now see that when I talk about something with Donald Trump, whether we meet in person or just have a call, all the European leaders always ask, ‘How was it?’ This shows the influence of Donald Trump, and this has never happened before with an American president. This also gives you confidence that he can stop this war.”
Fridman asked Zelenskyy what security guarantees Ukraine would need that would satisfy Zelenskyy.
Zelenskyy reflected on the Budapest Memorandum, which required Ukraine to give up nuclear weapons in exchange for protection from the U.S., Great Britain and others.
Regarding the security guarantors of the Budapest Memorandum, Zelensky said, “None of them gave a d*** about this country, these people, these security guarantees, etc.” Another deal would “be a Budapest Memorandum.” He added, “In Feb. 2022, the war began. Letters for consultations have been sent, no one answers. The question is simple about the Budapest Memorandum. Can we trust this? No.”
However, Zelensky added, “I trust President Trump.”
“He told me on the phone that he is waiting for us to meet, and there will be an official visit, and that our visit will be the first or one of the first to him,” Zelenskyy said. “I know that he has his own matters, American issues, I understand. But regarding international affairs, I think our issue is one of the most pressing issues for President Trump. Therefore, I trust him very much, and I hope we will meet again.”
He continued, “We need his vision, because he can stop Putin, because Putin is afraid of him. That’s a fact.”
Zelenskyy thanks Elon Musk for help with StarLink, asks him to visit Ukraine
Zelenskyy referenced a conversation he’d had with Musk at the beginning of the war. “I respect him, first and foremost. I respect the self-made man, right? No one and nothing fell into his lap, but the man did something, did it all himself,” Zelenskyy said.
Zelenskyy explained how he felt a connection to Musk as an entrepreneur and businessman. “The man is a great leader of innovations in the world,” he said. “And I believe that such people move the world forward. Therefore, I respect the result of his work, and we see this result. And for me, it has always been important that your result can be used, that these are not words, but facts.”
He also referenced Musk’s early involvement in the war with StarLink. “We used it after Russian missile attacks on the energy infrastructure, there were problems with the internet, etc.,” Zelenskyy explained. He also mentioned how multifaceted StarLink was in Ukraine. “We used Starlink both at the front and in kindergartens, it was used in schools, we used it in various infrastructure, and it helped us very much.”
“And I would very much like Elon to be on our side, as much as possible to support us.” He continued, “I would like him to come to Ukraine to talk to people here, to look around, and so on.”
Zelenskyy and Fridman discuss what peace-negotiations would look like
As Fridman and Zelenskyy switched back and forth between Russian and English, Zelenskyy said, “This is why it’s so painful to talk about the Russian language, because look, if a person does not want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language they speak.”
Fridman responded, “I disagree with you here. I think and hope that many people in Russia will hear us today.”
Zelensky said, “They blocked YouTube in their country recently. Are you aware of this?”
“I know, and I simply guarantee that this conversation will travel fast on the Internet,” Fridman said. “Everyone will hear you; they will hear you. Including the president of Russia will hear you.”